Apply for Membership
Don't forget to vote!
Donate

Donate

Recent Donations
[TWC] Mr T
€5.00 EUR
1 day ago
[TWC] Crow
£10.00 GBP
4 days ago
[TWC] Patty Evans
$5.00 USD
4 days ago
[TWC] Rik
€2.50 EUR
14th Jun
Dee
€0.90 EUR
27th May
Next »
Online Members
[TWC] Fro
Online now

Condoxy
Online now
Online Guests: 16
Events
Time Zones

UK BST

08:23:53

US EST Time

03:23:53

UTC

09:23:53

[Discussion] Zargabad and Apache
Forum » Public Server » Public Server Discussion Locked
Joined: 7th Mar 2014
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 585
13th Dec 2015

So seeing as we now have Zargabad, with it comes the almighty Apache. 
Personally i think it doesn't fit the public server because of these and probably more reasons:

A) Taliban are operating in civilian areas and therefore civilian casualties are uninviteable.

B) The map is tiny and the apache can literally see the whole map without alot of effort. 

C) It's a freaking Apache. 

I would be fine with Apache on a bigger map like Takistan where you actually have to navigate around the map to shoot stuff, since right now they can just hover outside Zargabad and rain down fire on both civilians and enemies.

So what does everyone else thing of this? Would be interested to hear what other people think!



Signature Picture

Anschluss: granny rape fantasy is my kink.

Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

Tbh and Jefro can confirm this.. A couple of days ago we didn't kill a single civi with the Apache. If we did it would say we did in the form of server messages. We rained down fiery hell upon enemies that were surruonding you. I mean, ask yourself this... Would the Army IRL call in an Apache if their under heavy fire ? Even in the city, it's more effective than artillery.
Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 1021
13th Dec 2015

i confirm we did NOT kill any civvs man , it was actually a really cool experience of how it would actually be used ..we supported squads , returned to base , provided security for movements and heli's dropping guys off it was really good ...and it wasn't o.p or at least didnt seem it ..taking small arms fire most of the time

i see what zurxo means tho because it dont really seem fitting , but all i can say is please go use it , if you havnt and im sure you will see it is ok ....

i think the question is do we have a replacement ?


Signature Picture

"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 270
13th Dec 2015

That is exactly what the apache is for. It is high lethality with extreme precision in order to engage targets in a civilian area with minimal risk to civilians


Signature Picture

'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 14th Sep 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 317
13th Dec 2015

For the sake of argument, we did not have the Apache in the old twc for zargabad. It is OP for the map.
Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

I see where you're coming from Wired, but think about this.

Enemy morale is at it's highest, you have 15 people online, Apache and Blackhawk crew. So that leaves you with 11 people to be in squads. Let's say Bravo is in Yarum and Alpha is in Zargabad. Now, Bravo is 10 minutes away from Alpha and Alpha has 5 PEOPLE ONLY 5 and they come under contact from super-uber-elite Insurgents that when the morale is at the highest level become deadly as the Spestnaz. By the time Bravo would come to help them, Alpha would be wiped out. However, here comes the Apache. Instead of letting the enemy kill more NATO soldiers (Bravo in this case) we call in the ultimate equalizer so it can provide our troops with support.

The Apache is in no case op when the enemy morale is at it's highest level.
Last Edit: 13th Dec 2015 by Mallas
Joined: 7th Mar 2014
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 585
13th Dec 2015

QuoteI see where you're coming from Wired, but think about this.

Enemy morale is at it's highest, you have 15 people online, Apache and Blackhawk crew. So that leaves you with 11 people to be in squads. Let's say Bravo is in Yarum and Alpha is in Zargabad. Now, Bravo is 10 minutes away from Alpha and Alpha has 5 PEOPLE ONLY 5 and they come under contact from super-uber-elite Insurgents that when the morale is at the highest level become deadly as the Spestnaz. By the time Bravo would come to help them, Alpha would be wiped out. However, here comes the Apache. Instead of letting the enemy kill more NATO soldiers (Bravo in this case) we call in the ultimate equalizer so it can provide our troops with support.

The Apache is in no case op when the enemy morale is at it's highest level.

...

That's not really how public server works and i think you overdramatize the whole situation where Apache will come save the day.

Seeing as you brought up "OP" let's talk about what makes something overpowered or not.

Something that is overpowered is easy to use, very hard to counter and in general makes the game boring for everyone else because it can kill everything with ease.

Yes i get it that everyone loves the apache because it can kill stuff, sure! But it makes the game very dull and boring having it around for everyone except for the crew itself. 

On Stratis when you were civilian and you hear Apache in the area you are majorly fucked because there is nowhere to hide. Even less so on Zargabad which makes renders them useless. 

Apaches does not have a single thread towards them except if they try and land inside Zargabad, simply because there is nothing to counter them except for rpgs. You might now be thinking that "Oh there is a ZSU so that can kill it." That is probably the least of concerns for the apache since it probably can see the AA just after it's taken off with it's thermals and take it out outside the AAs range.

People will probably call out that "let's just give loads of IGLAs to the insurgents" The apache would still be overpowered beacuse you know, it's an Apache. 

It's still a game, meaning it needs balance in order for the players to have a good time. It doesn't matter how realistic it is if the players arent enjoying themselves.

Mallas is saying how the apache isn't OP when the enemy morale is at its highest
that may be true but how often does it get to that level?
The only reason for it to get that high would be because you know... Apache killing civilians in the first place.

Small question i have aswell, would an Apache really attack a city full of civilians when a taliban is outside a civilians house when the civilian and his lads are throwing a party inside? I wouldn't think so.



Signature Picture

Anschluss: granny rape fantasy is my kink.

Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 1021
13th Dec 2015

zargabad has been up for around 5 days ...the apache has been used 1TIME ...lol

yes it can be op....DEPENDING on how it's used , if you use it properly it's not an issue or at least it wasnt the other day when it was used....

i really think people are missing the reality of what happens because the other day when it was used no one had a problem and nor did it create any....and when it's been used literally 1 time makes you wonder WTF lol



Signature Picture

"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Joined: 31st Jul 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 142
13th Dec 2015

I think the apache is WAY too much force to be used in an urban environment, by a tiny groundforce ( 4-5 teams) and we should go back to armored support like in ye olden days

i'd much rather have something we've never had before, something like a BMP-1/2 or a BMD provided by the local forces, hell even throw in Mi-8 instead of our boring old blackhawk

Pretty much this would be the perfect excuse to do so

"After BLUFOR drove out the Russians doing a landgrab in the middle east (that's Domination), "pro-russian seperatists" are fighting against the newly established Takistani/Zhargabadian government who are aided by a small NATO force"


"The overwhelming majority of people who have ever fired a gun in anger were just pointing it in the general direction of the enemy and hoping for the best."
-Anonymous

Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

So you're saying you're not enjoying your time on the public just because we have an Apache that is TWC members only and requires 13 people to be online to be used ?

Well that's just a very stupid reason tbh. There is a lot of proof (Youtube sources, wikis etc) that the Apache is being used in urban areas. If civilians die in the process, well it's their fucking fault for being in that area. They just become collateral damage.

Here's some proof of the Apache being used in urban areas :

https://www.youtube.com/w ... atch?v=c3bN82dY-ks (extended version https://www.youtube.com/w ... atch?v=NtPvRZ6Vepw)
https://www.youtube.com/w ... atch?v=v4YSRxE_cvA

EDIT :

To counter on your argument that the Apache doesn't have a threat, well because that's how it's supposed to be. Overwhelming force is always used by the US Military. I mean, how would a stupid Insurgent in the middle of Kabul (just an example) get his hands on a military grade AA weapon ? He wouldn't. He might have an RPG, yes, but not a Shilka or an IGLA, they're not the Iraqi Army. The Apache is there to kill people and destroy stuff and that's it. Even prince Harry was an Apache gunner in Afghanistan.
Last Edit: 13th Dec 2015 by Mallas
Joined: 20th Jan 2013
Rank: Management
Likes 1561
13th Dec 2015

QuoteI mean, how would a stupid Insurgent in the middle of Kabul (just an example) get his hands on a military grade AA weapon ? He wouldn't.
I'm all for the Apache remaining, however this counter-argument just doesn't work. There's a huge legacy of Soviet and US supplied weaponry in the area. The Mujahideen had a lot of Stingers, Strelas and Blowpipes. Soviets lost 300+ helicopters and 100+ aircraft during the Soviet-Afghan war. 

We've lost aircraft in the Afghanistan war due to MANPADs. 

http://www.telegraph.co.u ... Nato-helicopter.html



"Jokes on them, I was only pretending to be retarded."

Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

I'm talking in urban areas. Since we're talking about Zargabad, there is no evidence that an Apache or any other helicopter in an urban area was shot down with heatseeking missiles.
Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 270
13th Dec 2015

"By the end of U.S. military operations in Iraq in December 2011, several Apache helicopters had been shot down by enemy fire, and others lost in accidents. In 2006, an Apache was downed by a Soviet-made Strela 2 (SA-7) in Iraq, despite the Apache being typically able to avoid such missiles. In 2007, four Apache helicopters were destroyed on the ground by insurgent mortar fire using web-published geotagged photographs taken by soldiers. Several AH-64s were lost to accidents in Afghanistan as of 2012"


Signature Picture

'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

Mortars...The most efficent AA weaponry. And Harry, that is still one account in 2006 by a Strela in a mountain area most likely. We're talking urban area.

Anyway, we haven't heared managments opinion on this, Harry ?
Last Edit: 13th Dec 2015 by Mallas
Joined: 7th Mar 2014
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 585
13th Dec 2015

QuoteMortars...The most efficent AA weaponry. And Harry, that is still one account in 2006 by a Strela in a mountain area most likely. We're talking urban area.

...

Why would it make a difference where it happend? The point has already been made, insurgents have access to AA equipment.


Signature Picture

Anschluss: granny rape fantasy is my kink.

Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 270
13th Dec 2015

Mallas, Mortars ARE ridiculously effective against helos. They fire down from above them with timed fuses and detonate around them sending shrapnel throughout the aircraft in the exact sameway an AA missile works without having to rely on a rocket to be able to follow the target


Signature Picture

'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

Because you are saying we don't need an Apache in urban areas. That's why it makes a difference. My point has also been made that the Apache is being used in urban areas so there's no point in arguing about that aswell then, is it ?
Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 270
13th Dec 2015

And mallas the strela incident took place in/around Baghdad [pretty sure that would be considered urban]


Signature Picture

'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 11th Dec 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 537
13th Dec 2015

Then add Strela/Igla to the insurgents. Simple.
Joined: 20th Jan 2013
Rank: Management
Likes 1561
13th Dec 2015

QuoteI'm talking in urban areas. Since we're talking about Zargabad, there is no evidence that an Apache or any other helicopter in an urban area was shot down with heatseeking missiles.
If you really must, there was an Apache shot down in the north of Baghdad in 2006 by a Strela. I don't understand why moving the goalposts to urban only areas makes a notable difference of the insurgency we're dealing with equipment wise.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT ... nal/story?id=1515168

Again, I am not arguing for the removal of the Apache.


"Jokes on them, I was only pretending to be retarded."

Last Edit: 13th Dec 2015 by Bosenator
Forum » Public Server » Public Server Discussion Locked
Please login or register to reply.
Chat Box
[TWC] freez 01:23
sign up then
[TWC] DerpyDays 01:02
school is over for me i can finally play some arma ops with twc
[TWC] Lukey 23:32
Truth!
[TWC] Bosenator 22:42
heroes too
[TWC] Bosenator 22:42
Lukey: not all hereos wear capes, but they do wield Thompsons.
Theo Papas 19:43
public is on
Condoxy 18:11
i will be on around 9 if no training
Theo Papas 20th Jun
6pm?
Notepid 20th Jun
Pew pew
[TWC] Hobbs 20th Jun
public tonight, finishing off clafghan
Condoxy 19th Jun
Dont forget to vote!!!
[TWC] Crow 19th Jun
Thompsons, fucks sake bose why do you do the cool shit when im not there
Theo Papas 19th Jun
public is on (:
[TWC] Aleyboy 19th Jun
aye
Theo Papas 19th Jun
public tonight?
[TWC] Bosenator 19th Jun
Thompson Guns, no stens.
[TWC] Bosenator 19th Jun
Section Commanders --- we need you!
[TWC] Aleyboy 18th Jun
Clafghan public - get on
Countdown
Operation DYNAMO
2 Days, 9 Hours, 56 Minutes and 7 Seconds
Roster
Newest Players
TomH730
10 hours ago

CrazyLemon42
1 day ago

wumkin
3 days ago

Dew
4 days ago

Meteorwolf
5 days ago