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[Discussion/Suggestion] More optional gear.
Forum » Public Server » Public Server Discussion
Joined: 31st Jul 2013
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 154
29th Jul 2015

So, i had this idea while i was playing together with Sajuuk and we had civies in a room together  with insurgents so we couldn't just frag the hostile.
Basically, the Squadleader has access to additional gear like non-lethal grenades (flahsbangs, concussion grenades) IR strobes, a shotgun maybe? wirecutters , you get the idea, situational gear.  (in a seperate ammobox to avoid cluttering the regular one)
The use of this is that the Squadleader could give out these situational items to his team when needed, and to avoid the regular teammembers dicking around and causing mayhem with flashbangs "for the lulz" or somebody feeling like a cool guy and running around with a shotgun for no reason.


"The overwhelming majority of people who have ever fired a gun in anger were just pointing it in the general direction of the enemy and hoping for the best."
-Anonymous

Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 1022
29th Jul 2015

i think the pointmen/ first rifleman of each american squad should have the choice of a shotgun in any gamemode IF it is avaiable in the mods and is an easy implementation ....defo 100000% because this is a realistic application i am all for this and i can show references for its use and where

and prob just the concussion grenades i could agree with , but still does any army use these ? , from what i know when a room is breached its either with a frag grenade ,maybe c4 on wall, shotgun on point or just good old gun in face "dont move" - i understand your reason thats why i agree, but still wouldn't like it if an army unit didnt use them, i would just get really good at my sharpshooter skills i feel there more for mp or normal police ?

ir strobes should already be in use , because we have nighttime in the public maybe not done yet or forgot ? lol - only squad lead / 2ic should have them tho.

as for wire cutters i would leave that to the point man and i would ONLY implement it when we are on insurgencey and have a valon and that type of equipment in use for ied's... just helps validate that type of equipments use more.

hope this helps

edit : lol and as i do hear this frequently i will just say , rules are rules if people are fooling around u know what to do..... but equipment being shared also does happen - some find it fun in the serva, some are more senciable but here:

https://www.youtube.com/w ... atch?v=prE-AymqzJk

1 guy 3 different guns lol...


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"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Last Edit: 29th Jul 2015 by JEFRO
Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 284
30th Jul 2015

My opinion on individual things
IR strobes - Yes [Would only really be useful at night to mark friendlies for the apache]
Non-Lethal - No not standard use in military only really used by police/ SF plus no matter what you say at the end of the day people will just piss around with them.
Shotgun - Would love the rifleman for alpha/delta [brits] to have access as a choice only for Bravo charlie if the US marines/army actually use a shotgun
Wirecutters - dont see the need, do they have any real use ingame?


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'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 1022
30th Jul 2015

@ harry yea mate , marines and us army use shotguns here :

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki ... by_U.S._Armed_Forces

as you can see the 870 has been in use since 1950 to present
benelli m4 in service from 1999 to present
and finally the mosberg 590a1 from 2004 for the marines and 2005 for the army to present date

so theres a choice of 3 shotguns

here is also some evidence that the british use it also but they do only use the benelli m4 : http://www.army.mod.uk/eq ... uipment/23225.aspx
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki ... British_Armed_Forces

so i guess now it should be added to all platform's ? (british and american forces in game at least )

and the united states army, the navy seals and the us navy do have the use of the m84 stun grenade and concussion grenade - ....here: https://en.wikipedia.org/ ... States_hand_grenades

and here "see bottom section about grenades" : http://www.globalsecurity ... y/fm/3-23-30/ch1.htm

and here : "active service in some branches"
https://en.wikipedia.org/ ... he_U.S._Armed_Forces

i now defo after reading this evidence, ii would support this idea with the grenades .....now i guess its up to management if any more evidence is needed , just ask i see if i can find some more concrete stuff ?

edit:
if people piss around just know that i will report them , i do not want our / my experience ruined or not grow in any way, because of the speculation of stupidity - rules are rules , why should we suffer ? - thats all i can offer with that lol


Signature Picture

"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Last Edit: 1st Aug 2015 by JEFRO
Joined: 16th Nov 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 723
30th Jul 2015

Definite no to non-lethals , shotguns let me think about it .


Respect is earned, not given

Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 284
30th Jul 2015

I am aware the US Army also uses non lethal when i said that i meant in terms of normal use and standard equipment they as far as i am aware only use if a mission directly calls for e.g. embassy with hostages etc.


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'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 31st Jul 2013
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 154
30th Jul 2015

Well, that's the whole idea of "stuff the squadleader has access to, but isn't intended to be used all the time"
I know very well that flashbangs are not broadly issued, but that's where the "optional" comes in, its more or less the process of getting issued specialised equiptment.

I've been using my google-fu to try and find any sources on usage of non-lethal weapons in COIN Ops. Didn't find anything yet, so i'm willing to back up on the flashbang idea.


"The overwhelming majority of people who have ever fired a gun in anger were just pointing it in the general direction of the enemy and hoping for the best."
-Anonymous

Joined: 14th Sep 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 317
30th Jul 2015

Out of curiosity can we get a reason on the flat out no to the flash bangs? Cause those actually could be useful in insurgency as stated above. I realize that it is treading on SF stuff, however I think it would still fit on the public server.
Joined: 13th Oct 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 620
30th Jul 2015

I don't think flashbags are required in game but they were used by the US marines when they went into fallujah. They found that insurgents would barricade themselves in a room with a load of drugs and be completely impervious to suppression or pain. A live grenade couldn't guarantee a room to be clear or that the death funnel (the entrance / door) would not have a gun pointed at it. Flashbags pretty much guaranteed that soldiers could enter a room / building where the drugged up insurgent was rubbish his eyes and ears and was promptly given a chest full of lead.


"You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread." - Hanz Guderian

Joined: 1st Mar 2014
Rank: --
Likes 157
1st Aug 2015

Actually we used non lethals in afghan. And not just special force units. In fact with urban fighting you have different entry for different volatility of situation. For example you'd use a frag every time if you know there's enemy in a room and no cigs, flash bang if possible civs or you want to non lethal capture. Low probability of anything being in the room you'd go in quiet. Stealth is important in urban fighting so no point making a bang when you don't need to, just lets the enemy know where you are. Remember speed surprise and violence of action Definitely used shotguns. And Harry a flash bang and a concussion grenade are 2 names for the same thing. It's a call of duty thing where they do different shit. In real life it's the same thing
Joined: 1st Aug 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 284
1st Aug 2015

Wasnt me who said they were different. infact dont think i ever mentioned them by name =P


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'Who can be bothered to learn the Acrylic alphabet?' - Ghostie3k
'As they say, Potato Pototo.' - JEFRO
'In the APC tower' Lockoncap (needs clarification)
'You don't get a full KFC from chicken' Paddock

Winston Churchill to Lady Astor: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 1022
1st Aug 2015

think it was me lol

there are two types of grenade tho it not the same, a stun grenade and a concussion grenade

the m84 stun grenade :
https://en.wikipedia.org/ ... iki/M84_stun_grenade

the mk3 concussion grenade :
https://en.wikipedia.org/ ... wiki/MK3_grenade

the m84 is what people call a "flashbang" because that what it visually does


Signature Picture

"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Last Edit: 1st Aug 2015 by JEFRO
Joined: 16th Jun 2015
Rank: --
Likes 201
1st Aug 2015

QuoteActually we used non lethals in afghan. And not just special force units. In fact with urban fighting you have different entry for different volatility of situation. For example you'd use a frag every time if you know there's enemy in a room and no cigs, flash bang if possible civs or you want to non lethal capture. Low probability of anything being in the room you'd go in quiet.
The questions you want to be asking are, you as acting or former military personal were you or are as individual soldiers in a conventional British section or US Army/marines trained and issued flash bangs in close quarters where there's a probability of civilians. I know the military is training for a more conventional warfare now but i should of thought you have been trained to deal with combat with civilian presence surely. If you were issued stun grenades then yer implement it. The idea is we emulate our selected forces at its current state as if the western coalition was to actually go in to Stratis and fight an unconventional force with a civilian presence within the month. Obviously the game mode we play is based on our knowledge of Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts as people have virtually grown up with those conflicts going on so given the situation the same tactics would be used but again when you say "not just spec opps" it seems vague. I no for CQB we have different types of breaching like hard breach and soft breach hard breach having a frag thrown like you said.  

QuoteDefinite no to non-lethals , shotguns let me think about it .
As stated it should be are these conventional forces issued non lethal when building clearing with a civilian presence, I really do hate the assumption game. Also include who is issued it IE "the grenadier in my section was issued flash bangs when we did an exercise a month ago" I cant find much to back it up though maybe there will be a few guys in the military that could help out. 
Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 1022
1st Aug 2015

@ kieran here is a list of grenades used by the u.s military, as you can see they use stun and concussion grenades as for who ? it says the grenadier is specialized in throwing / using grenades but i think most infantry are allowed / qualified, im not sure about the brits tho:

https://en.wikipedia.org/ ... States_hand_grenades

overall it i believe it's situational , on insurgencey i would say stun grenades ...

then domi i would say "concussion grenades" as i think that would be realistic

i do only think it should be for the u.s tho

i can try find some info on the brits using this stuff but i think it would be left to the sas rather than reg infantry to use these types of things ? unlike the u.s....



Signature Picture

"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Last Edit: 1st Aug 2015 by JEFRO
Joined: 1st Mar 2014
Rank: --
Likes 157
1st Aug 2015

I've never been to afghan but my corporal who has said he did use them on capture missions. but there was a vast scope of missions the royals did that main stream army units didn't. Yeah I didn't think what force type you are trying to emulate. All I've been shown is that if we are going into certain situations we use them. Mostly assaults on compounds with a specific mission. Perhaps not the patrol around a fob search the odd building scenario.
Joined: 31st May 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 1323
1st Aug 2015

On a similar vein to the GPMG/Minimi thread, the focus is shifting to contingency and allowing the Plt Cmd the choice of what weapons are available etc, I think that they should be available.


Arma Pacis Fulcra - Armed Strength for Peace

Joined: 16th Jun 2015
Rank: --
Likes 201
1st Aug 2015

Well the force type is a British army/USMC rifles/US ARMY dismounted/motorised infantry against an insurgence force with a civilian precense (technically asymmetric warfare but there can be a lot of enemys considering its game, however thats what it is). It isnt afghan btw, what i was looking for are the regular infantry trained and issued flash bangs in a close quarters situation with a possible civilian presence.

TLDR would the any of the selected use flash bangs in close quarters where theres a civilian presence. What my guess is, if youve never done it in training chances are you wont do it in the field with the exceptions. I could be completly wrong but there's no evidence (on the british part that is, given the community lacks US military personnel).
Last Edit: 1st Aug 2015 by Kieran
Joined: 1st Mar 2014
Rank: --
Likes 157
2nd Aug 2015

Well I'm trained on the use of flashbangs. Don't know if regular army are though. I've only done rmc training. And soon for those that I havnt told. Paratrooper training. (Yes I'm switching branches) so I've not worked with. Or talked to any army outfit. So again I can't say what they do
Joined: 3rd Nov 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 105
3rd Aug 2015

Only Israeli standard army utilise flashbangs in my experience. Otherwise its limited to situational SF ops.

The British Army does utilise the ARGO 12 Gauge Combat Shotgun (Solid Shot 130M and Buck 40M ECR) with their point men regularly, in particular when teams are expected to breech and clear compounds. The CS uses the EOT Tech Site for Day/Night operations and Iron Sights and has a telescopic buttstock.

Joined: 16th Jun 2015
Rank: --
Likes 201
3rd Aug 2015

http://www.army.mod.uk/eq ... uipment/23225.aspx

yer the shot guns used in close quarters and when the terrain is complex, Id love to no what "close country" means as in
QuoteThe combat shotgun is used by the 'point man' of a section at close quarters within close country and complex terrain.
Last Edit: 3rd Aug 2015 by Kieran
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