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Forum » Public Server » Public Server Discussion
Are you in favour of an extended or a limited Modset

I want an extended Modset
I want a limited Modset

Joined: 24th Jan 2015
Rank: Member
Likes 1428
3rd May 2016

Since we have this discussion everytime and I want to know who actually is the majority or minority in this issue.

The issue is about the amount and size of mods we want to have on the Public Server and there two positions on this:

Extended Modset:
This solution means that we use a high number of high quality mods for the Public Server, some of which are not available via the steamworkshop.
The advantage is the maximum possible realism and graphic fidelity as we can pick the best mods possible.
The disadvantage is a bigger download and by extension (arguably) less attractivity for people who join via the server browser.

Limited Modset:
This solution means we use a limited number of mods available through the Steamworkshop.
The advantage is the smaller download, which should be easier because of Arma integrated Steamworkshop, potentially attracting more people.
The disadvantage is lower graphical quality and limited realism as we are forced to use certain mods (such as CUP).

Basically do you want the opportunity for people to get the mods via the steamworkshop with all advantages and disadvantages that brings.

Snowball: "That was a textbook assault"
Cal: "What textbook are you fucking reading?"

"Will, you need to be more flexible especially when things start getting hard." - Jayman

Last Edit: 3rd May 2016 by Saxon
Joined: 27th Sep 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 232
3rd May 2016

We need moar options here, suggest split the two current options.
IMO, opening the floodgates to all the mods is a bad idea. Downloading accessibility for new players is paramount. But through dropping steam workshop and add/readding a FEW, very valuable mods I beleive would help the public server to be more attractive NOT only to new players but also to the players in this group. I also believe this would help player count, and a better player count makes it more attractive to new players. [ALMOST REGARDLESS of what mission/map/era we are playing, which so many seem to lose their shit over ]

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Last Edit: 3rd May 2016 by Mc_Jazza
Joined: 10th Mar 2015
Rank: Public Player
Likes 491
3rd May 2016

A poll on our forum is not going to be a good indicator of which direction we should choose. There is going to be a bias towards the extended modset, since everyone who will vote on this poll is already heavily invested into TWC and will therefore surely want the best experience for themselves (which is fair enough), even if that means going a little bit more out of their way. To use an analogy (albeit perhaps not a 100% accurate one), it is like a bird watching forum asking what peoples favourite animal is.
Joined: 12th Feb 2014
Rank: Inactive Member
Likes 149
3rd May 2016

This is what we currently have in place:

The missions on Stratis and Altis are first in rotation. Minimal mods and accessible through the server browser. When members were active on the server, people found and joined the server through the server browser. The concept worked. Right now there is just no motivation for them to do so due to the low player count.

After these missions, you will find missions in the rotation that require the full modset with many fancy mods that are not available in Steam Workshop. So why haven't you seen these missions recently? Because Jayman is currently developing insurgency, flashpoint and domi on one map each. Once he is happy with the state of it, the mission can easily be ported to other maps.

If we decide to abandon the minimal mods strategy, I can absolutely guarantee you that the server will never ever find a large audience and the only people playing on it will be members. You are correct in saying that right now the server isn't popular either, but it has the potential to be successful. The missions are quality-wise good at the moment.

So, in the end, what is really the problem and what can we do about it? The answer to the first part of the question is easy. Low player count by members. Nobody is ever going to join an empty server. I do not have the answer to the second part of the question, but it is absolutely not fancy mods. Remember the days before the new server browser? The server wasn't any more popular than it is now. And it was running Zargabad, Takistan and all of the wonderful 12GB maps.

If we switch to a new system, the server will suddenly have people playing on it, because there is something new to look at and not because the missions on it would be any more fun. After a couple of weeks the hype would die down and everything would be back to normal. Just this time without a public player ever having the chance to join the server.

However, I am happy to listen to convincing arguments on why the current mission system does not work.
Joined: 27th Sep 2014
Rank: Member
Likes 232
3rd May 2016

"If we decide to abandon the minimal mods strategy, I can absolutely guarantee you that the server will never ever find a large audience"

Bold Statement, Mind explaining your reasoning?

Also nice to see this critically flawed, narrow poll is accomplishing nothing other than forcing the group into two camps when there are many valid points on a scale between the two.

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Last Edit: 4th May 2016 by Mc_Jazza
Joined: 20th Jan 2013
Rank: Member
Likes 2335
4th May 2016

Furthermore agreeing to Cals post about selection bias, Jayman asked Reddit a few months back (far more representative of those these benefits are targeted towards) about this very topic. ... download_for_public/

I believe the answers given are very much inline with current thoughts within management and the decisions made to rectify that. Which does work, as there are individuals who have connected to us through the server browser, one even topping the most played for a while. 

There's also survivorship bias in this as well. As individuals progress from the public into becoming a TWC recruit/member, they'll download the Operations and Trainings Repo (hopefully). Therefore making the usage of their steam workshop mod set obsolete, and most likely removed.

Now, you can say at this point that the steam workshop repo is useless, because the individual has removed it. What's the point? Well, in this very scenario the user wouldn't have progressed on to the main course, if they hadn't whetted their appetite with the steam workshop appetiser. 

There are issues yes, but this is fundamentally one-hundred percent not the cause. Not only is it so far removed from being a cause, it is actually one of the elements that alleviates the issue of low player count, as evidenced by outside opinion and the successes it's brought us. However difficult that concept may be to grasp from our perspective. 

It's all about the opportunity cost of an individual's time. We want to make sure we're a good alternative, when they look at spending that resource. The higher cost, the more alternatives are potential to that individual. If we lower that cost, so they can whet their appetites, the associated opportunity cost of spending further time with us is more appealing, working in our favour. 

However, this is a cyclical discussion that bears no fruits aside from all the same individuals bringing up the same points and refutes. To which is all dismissed inevitably until the next ebb in someones perspective of player count arises. However loud or repeated an argument/counterargument is made, it does not make it any more factual. 

Now where did I place those rose tinted glasses? 

"Jokes on them, I was only pretending to be retarded."

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured... the first thought forbidden... the first freedom denied – chains us all irrevocably."

Joined: 4th Oct 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 1027
4th May 2016

i agree the server isnt any more popular than before , so do we keep playing small mods or large mods ...if im in a group i wanna play with the best stuff available ...not shit textured guns , or uniforms , veicles or whatever BECASUE they are not added to god damn steamworkshop..... its pretty simple we go for server population regardless of quality (tried + failing) or whats the best for the group and the players in it and what they want...

and remember CURRENTLY they are the 1's playing everyday and donating to the server and who u are asking to play to even populate the server in the first place...

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"magical realism is defined as what happens when a highly detailed, realistic setting is invaded by something too strange to believe"

"doing the average thing - will get you the average results"

"its turns out that common sence - isnt that common"

Last Edit: 4th May 2016 by JEFRO
Joined: 3rd Oct 2015
Rank: Public Player
Likes 89
4th May 2016

What Cal said is right same with Alkali, Get active on the server doesn't matter if it brings new people or not in the end of the day people donate and people work on missions for the public so we have a place of our own.

Pro Aris et Focis.
Si vis pacem, para bellum!

Joined: 29th Aug 2015
Rank: Member
Likes 1251
4th May 2016

Although I generally dislike getting caught up in some of these discussions, here are my thoughts:

It would be best for the public server to accomodate as many people as possible and to simplify access in order secure a larger playerbase.

Our modset for the public is currenty:
  • 3cb (equipment, vehicles, weapons)
  • acc_paf (Polish)
  • ace3 (+optionals)
  • acre2
  • CBA
  • CUP (Terrains, units, vehicles, weapons)
  • FA18
  • FHQ Accesories (Requirement for the Polish)
  • Leights OPFOR
  • Middle East Warfare (ISIS)
  • NATO/Russian Weapons
  • RHS (RF and USA)
  • Trixie's Recon 
This totals to about 25.73 GB which I believe is absolutely rediculous for a public server.

Removing all mods which I believe are non-essential to our current gameplay we are left with:
  • ace3 (+optionals)
  • acre2
  • cba
  • CUP (Terrains, units, vehicles, weapons)
This brings the modpack down to 15.45 GB.
Having spoken to the CUP devs a bit recently I can tell you they're working hard but that's anecdotal, so let me instead point to you the huge consistent updates they have made over the past few months. It will not be long before CUP is pretty much all inclusive. 

Things like RHS and 3CB are already fairly useless thanks to CUP and removing all these things will remove a good 10 GB from the modpack. You might say "B-but it will still be 15gb which is big too!" to which I say: It's mostly CUP, and CUP has a great PR team, e.g their update post on reddit is one of the highest posts of this month and was followed by lots of smaller posts showing off the new stuff, and is available on steam workshop. People are going to have this mod if anything because it is so inclusive. If they don't want it for us, they'll want it for other things. 

The serverbrowser is a great feature, anyone who has ever played public with >10 people online knows that there is always a large number of people who attempt to connect before being disconnected because they don't have mods. If we take away these 10 GB people who have CUP will be able to join without much of a problem and those who don't will have a much easier time downloading 15 GB over 25 GB. 

This also ties in with my second thought, which is that motivating members to play public, even as little as 6 on a regular evening, will attract attention to our public and will attract not only other members but actual public players. 

[On a side note, Saxon: your poll is horribly leading, does not support all options and I am very disappointed.] 

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Joined: 10th Aug 2013
Rank: Management
Likes 798
4th May 2016

We cannot get rid of RHS and CUP
Joined: 29th Aug 2015
Rank: Member
Likes 1251
4th May 2016 ... CyhRKkXQdBk/viewform

I made a (slightly) more detailed survey I believe. Fill it out, leave comment on it. Lets see what people really want!

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Joined: 31st Jul 2013
Rank: Public Player
Likes 154
4th May 2016

I think we should really cut down on mods, for example, when's the last time anyone saw an F-18?

"The overwhelming majority of people who have ever fired a gun in anger were just pointing it in the general direction of the enemy and hoping for the best."

Forum » Public Server » Public Server Discussion
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